<Nikashi> Note to everyone in general : If any of you decide to form a new channel or whatever, maybe skip over giving me an invite, I've worked a long time to establish myself here and it's just difficult to keep doing the same things to new channels, and it's just tiring. No offense intended to anyone.
<AllieCat> its just a hang out
<HarlequinSocks> oh it'd be fine, if you werent a guy
<AllieCat> not an irc channel or whatever :)
<Nikashi> yaeh well, how many of you have received PMs or open channel messages stating that you were explicitly NOT welcome there, either officially or unofficially, or that your presence makes peopel uncomfortable. I totally understand why that is, I hold nothing against the people who feel that way, the opinion was likely come by honestly, but it's still very negative experience-wise for myself so no more,
<Nikashi> pls :)
<HarlequinSocks> AllieCat: its not about you and google+
<GlitchyGirl> o,O
<GlitchyGirl> Hello
<Nikashi> I'm happy to chat here
<Nikashi> and in PM if you'd like, I'm not going anywhere :)
<Nikashi> </drama>
<HarlequinSocks> Nikashi: dont worry, it's just fuckatards who think that the best way they can get through life is be being exclusionary, een though they themselves get a bunch of shit from being excluded
<Nikashi> Hey even if it's just to feel that power
<Nikashi> I understand it
<HarlequinSocks> its hypocritical
<Nikashi> Not my place to judge
<HarlequinSocks> it is mine
<alialliallie> lol
<HarlequinSocks> they sit in that channl talking about shit that could be talked about in here fine
<HarlequinSocks> but
<HarlequinSocks> 4 guys
<HarlequinSocks> WHAT DO
<HarlequinSocks> oh no
<HarlequinSocks> SO MUCH PATRIARCY
<HarlequinSocks> ;-;
<GlitchyGirl> Okay, Im going back to lurking
<GlitchyGirl> ttfn
<HarlequinSocks> i mean really, if having someone cis who is as cool as you Nikashi is that fucking disturbing, these poeple wont ever function in society
<HarlequinSocks> and thats actually really sad
<Nikashi> I appreciate the vote of confidence :)
<alialliallie> I don't have anything against Nikashi but I also 100% do not blame anyone who would be uncomfortable talking about their transness in front of a cis person.
<HarlequinSocks> why?
<HarlequinSocks> if you cant talk about these things around cis people then you're fucked
<HarlequinSocks> good luck getting therapy
<HarlequinSocks> talking to doctors
<HarlequinSocks> having a relationship
<HarlequinSocks> having good familial relations
<alialliallie> There's a big. fucking. difference. between a random cis dude in a trans irc channel and a therapist.
<OffensiveUser> yah cause not wanting cis dudes in a single space is like, the worst
<HarlequinSocks> fuck off is there
<alialliallie> Or any of those other strawmen.
<HarlequinSocks> alialliallie: you are so full of shit, stop trying to make excuses for exclusionary spaces for no reason other than that person is cis
<HarlequinSocks> its fucking apthetic
<alialliallie> lol
<HarlequinSocks> since how many of those people would lvoe to be cis
<alialliallie> stop making excuses for your internalized transphobia then
<NID> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/g5l462fli6ithveyzwcvokbhdea
<HarlequinSocks> and go to every length to exists with conditional cis privilege
<NID> ^ JOIN
<HarlequinSocks> its not my internalised transphobia at all
<HarlequinSocks> its calling poeple who hate being excluded fucking hypocrites for being exclusionary
<alialliallie> but what about the poor cis people being in trans space huh huh? :(
<alialliallie> so sad
<HarlequinSocks> oh n, how can we ever survive
<HarlequinSocks> oh wait
<alialliallie> As if they don't have the rest of the world.
<kiki_lamb> HarlequinSocks: just because i'm fine talking with cis people about some things, sometimes, doesn't mean i want to constantly be in the presence of cis people.
<HarlequinSocks> oh please
<Enraa> Nikashi is cool
<Enraa> :(
<kiki_lamb> Nikashi is totally cool
<HarlequinSocks> you've all tlaked about EXACTLY the same shit your talkng abut in that channel in this one with guys and cis poeple
<alialliallie> I get you don't give a shit beyond your own nose but is it really so hard to grasp that some people might not feel the same way?
<kiki_lamb> no disagreement there.
<HarlequinSocks> there is no disparity between the topic between those two channels in tpoics AT ALL
<HarlequinSocks> you just want to be exclusionary
<HarlequinSocks> dont fucking pretend otherwise
<kiki_lamb> not really, i'm not in charge of anything. someone felt like making a ladies' room. big whoop.
<kiki_lamb> it's IRC, anyone who feels like it can make a channel.
<Nikashi> Hey let me get this straight though, I don't think there should be an obligation, I just came up on this wall too many times when one person invites me and someone else REALLY doesn't like that, and it sucks causing drama by BEING AROUND
<GlitchyGirl> ...
<kiki_lamb> nothing wrong with a female only space here and there.
<alialliallie> Nikashi: I'm not blaming you, you seem fine.
<alialliallie> kiki_lamb: but.. what about.. the men???
<GlitchyGirl> Shit like this is why people leave this and other related channels
<GlitchyGirl> This if a FUCKING chatroom.   Anyone can join for a reason
<kiki_lamb> alialliallie: this is irc. they can make a million mens rooms if they want.
* kiki_lamb has no interest in being in the mens' room.
<GlitchyGirl> If you don't like it?  GTFO...
* alialliallie toggles her sarcasm flag on that last one.
<HarlequinSocks> you're fucking pathetic
<HarlequinSocks> end
<GlitchyGirl> Okay... who gives a flying damn if there is a cis male in here
<Enraa> ^
<SaucyElf> Nikashi: On that last one you are being truly trans. Just causing drama by being around and existing 8) 8)
<GlitchyGirl> This is a PUBLIC channel.  If you don't like the c hance that a cis male/female/whatever is in a public channel then maybe you should remove yourself.
<alialliallie> GlitchyGirl: No one does, HarlequinSocks is just upset someone else might want a different channel.
<kiki_lamb> Certainly not I. No one marketed this as a ladies' room.
<HarlequinSocks> no, im upset by poeple being fucking hypocrites
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<SaucyElf> HarlequinSocks: Then you're going to have trouble dealing with society as a whole
<kiki_lamb> For that matter, i don't think anyone actually ~complained~ about Nikashi being in the other room.
<OffensiveUser> yah wanting a space for transwomen makes u a hypocrite didn't u kno
<HarlequinSocks> then why did velvet invite him
<HarlequinSocks> to the ask him to leave?
<alialliallie> Maybe she didn't know much about him?
<kiki_lamb> Like, I remarked on his presence because I'd previously been told it was a girl's room. People clarified that he'd been invited by the owner, so I basically went 'welp, her channel, her rules'. then Nikashi left in a hugg.
<HarlequinSocks> oh fuck off
<GlitchyGirl> Wouldnt a private space be made... well private?
<kiki_lamb> huff.
<CaptnJac1> Nothing wrong with the occasional gentleman's club, womyn-born-womyn music festival, toilet only open to cis people...
<HarlequinSocks> it isnt a private space
<HarlequinSocks> it isnt even fucking secret
<HarlequinSocks> xD
<HarlequinSocks> its a public channel
<GlitchyGirl> That is the point.  If people want a trans space only channel... make one, pw protect it and be done with it
<HarlequinSocks> people just power tripping and being hypocrites
<GlitchyGirl> same for cis, mens, womens, womyns etc.
<OffensiveUser> to power trip, one needs power
<alialliallie> Anyhow if you don't really understand how power dynamics and shit between oppressed/oppressor work then I lol
<OffensiveUser> alialliallie: they can tell us to fuck off but not the other way around obv
<SaucyElf> GlitchyGirl: No one wants to change this channel,
<HarlequinSocks> oh god, yes, we are all weakend by the mere presence of cis poeple
<alialliallie> OffensiveUser: p much
<GlitchyGirl> Never thought anyone wanted to change this
<kiki_lamb> Harlequin: are you accusing me in particular of hipocrasy? Have I ever advocated against gendered spaces?
<HarlequinSocks> and everything we're gonna do to get on in society needs to be done explicitly by trans people
<alialliallie> OffensiveUser: didn't u know that you're not supposed to think different than another person who doesn't care
<OffensiveUser> oh yeah
<HarlequinSocks> its like inviting guys to a feminist meeting and then voting to ban the guys
<alialliallie> plus it immediately jumps to the conclusion that ur excluding cis people from the entire world
<OffensiveUser> i would vote to ban all men off the earth but thats just me
<kiki_lamb> well, it's more like geting invited to what's described as a space for women and then remarking that 'huh, there's a dude here.'.
<kiki_lamb> also, to my knowledge, no one's ever said the other room should not allow cis people.
<alialliallie> solution: everyone gender their nick
<kiki_lamb> it was described as being a ladies only room, though, so you'd kind of figure there'd be no men.
* SaucyElf alialliallie would need an animated gif for that one alialliallie 8)
<SaucyElf> errr I would need one
<kiki_lamb> but hey, it's velvet's channel, her rules. maybe she changed her mind about the ladies only part. it's her channel, her right.
<OffensiveUser> kiki_lamb: it's stated in the topic others are welcome tbh
<kiki_lamb> OffensiveUser: ah, that's new then.
<OffensiveUser> i think not
<OffensiveUser> dunno tho dont pay much attention to topics on the whole
<alialliallie> SaucyElf: like an elf on some pasta
<kiki_lamb> anyhow. i've still not actually complained, i merely expressed my surprise since i was previously unaware that the policy had changed to allow others.
<HarlequinSocks> i sat in that channel for a good while guaging what it was all about, if this was about making a safe space JUST for trans women to talk about the things they WONT talk about in the presence of guys and/or cis people it failed, everyone was tlaking about the same shit they talked about in here, hence it isnt needing to exist other than people want to be exxclusionary towards cis and/or men
<HarlequinSocks> end
<kiki_lamb> eh... tbh I do think i'm a bit more harsh/critical/abrasive in the other channel, but that might stop now that it's become a mixed space.
<kiki_lamb> and like... there's nothing wrong with not wanting to always be around men. that's a perfectly valid preference.
<OffensiveUser> blah blah blah pedantry, is your entire point HarlequinSocks?
<OffensiveUser> cool
<SaucyElf> kiki_lamb: agreed. I do self censor here for politeness
<CaptnJac1> It's funny that people use 'oh, she is able to do that' to justify shutting down criticism of something.
<HarlequinSocks> if you feel the need to censor what you are saying around ccis people and/or men
<HarlequinSocks> maybe you should fucking evaluate what it is you are saying
<Nikashi> note : I was the only guy there it's not mixed gender anymore
<Nikashi> problem solved.
<alialliallie> CaptnJac1: I'm just amazed at the complete lack of understanding about safe spaces for marginalized groups.
<alialliallie> but what do I know
<HarlequinSocks> oh god, yes """""""""""safe sapce"""""""""""
<OffensiveUser> HarlequinSocks: because if cis men do not agree with what you're saying you are wrong obviously
<CaptnJac1> alialliallie: trans women are distinctly not a marginalised group in here.
<HarlequinSocks> that is being used exactly lilke you have used a NON safe space
<kiki_lamb> CaptnJac1: women are a marginalized group, full stop
<CaptnJac1> kiki_lamb: not in this channel.
<kiki_lamb> this channel exists within the larger society
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<JPiper> Anyone know where I can get this book in Canada super cheap? Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity
<CaptnJac1> kiki_lamb: so does any "safe space", your point is invalid.
<kiki_lamb> having spaces where women are not marginalized is not the same as having women only spaces...
<SaucyElf> JPiper: Amazon has cheap copies. Awesome read
<OffensiveUser> torrent it?
<alialliallie> JPiper: It was super cheap on amazon recently but don't think it still is :(
<alialliallie> er, ebook of course
<JPiper> It's on Amazon but kindle only editions and paperback is quite expensive
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<kiki_lamb> JPiper: if you're in the GTA you can borrow mine
<JPiper> I'm in Calgary :(
<kiki_lamb> ah, that's a bit of a walk.
<JPiper> Ye more than a stones throw :)
<alialliallie> Anyhow serious talk, if someone wants to start a space where they feel more commfortable, for whatever reason, and it doesn't hurt you why are you making a big deal about it other than do act smug?
<tammiinnorcal> is  that a metric stone?
<alialliallie> general you
<kiki_lamb> CaptnJac1: well, to address that argument, safe spaces regularly exclude people that are not a part of the target audience. secondly, i have not personally been advocating for a 'safe space' as the term is generally used.
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<selenes92> If I may interject....
<alialliallie> kiki_lamb: Same concept though, doubt it's explicitly as such but any place dedicated to a particular marginalized group fits the rough definition
<HarlequinSocks> alialliallie: so if white poeple want to create a space where white people can be white poeple and be comfortable without any of the damnned niggers making them feel uncomfortable
<HarlequinSocks> thats fine
<HarlequinSocks> Gotcha
<Ulrike_Rayne> :\
<alialliallie> HarlequinSocks: do you really, seriously NOT understand how power dynamics work?
<alialliallie> or are you just a redditor?
<Ulrike_Rayne> Can't we all calm down? Goodness...
<bohu_> holy crackers
<OffensiveUser> alialliallie: excluding cis dudes = racism now
* bohu_ is now known as bohu
<OffensiveUser> sweet
<alialliallie> OffensiveUser: the real transphobia is against cis people :O
<HarlequinSocks> you're advocating for exclusionary bullshit for the sake of being comfortable that cool
<CaptnJac1> kiki_lamb: the argument for the acceptability of an exclusionary space is that it's needed to create a space where a group is not marginalised. Trans women already have several - most of the trans IRC channels for a start.
<kiki_lamb> white people do create white only spaces online.
<HarlequinSocks> so i guess people wont mind when gay people are excluded for making christians feel uncomfortable
<alialliallie> lol
<selenes92> I know people laugh at Laura's playground BUT look at how it's organized. There is ONE main chat where everyone usually is. If someone wants to have a discussion about a certain topic that others might not quite want to be invovled with, they go to a seperately labeled and approrpiate room.
<alialliallie> the point is here and HarlequinSocks is like a continent away
<selenes92> Why can't we look at TS as the main chat room and all the split rooms as sub rooms where people like to discuss certain topics?
<alialliallie> and so am I because I have things to do in the meat world
<kiki_lamb> CaptnJac1: i can enjoy a women's only space without it having anything to do with arginalization at all.
<bohu> HarlequinSocks: i do not care if christians have a space where they want to talk about gay people without me knowing
<selenes92> People have the goddamn perogative to talk where they will
<bohu> like who cares
<Ulrike_Rayne> Oh my fucking God you're all acting like children...
* Ulrike_Rayne ([email protected]) has left
<kiki_lamb> selenes92: because the other rooms are completely unrelated.
<kiki_lamb> selenes92: Velvet's room is no more a 'sub-room' of this one than #firefox or #python is.
* alialliallie is now known as alialligames
<kiki_lamb> they merely co-exist on the same irc network run by a third party
<HarlequinSocks> in THIS instance you are talking about excluding a minority for the sake of being "comfortable" to do all the shit you have already done for months perfectly fine around said people you want to exclude
<HarlequinSocks> trans irc is fucking RUN by trnas women
<selenes92> There are certain people in some chatrooms I cannot fucking stand. I should be able to join a room of mine own FREE FROM CRITICISM to discuss without that person interjecting
<HarlequinSocks> and 4 guys are enough to make you that fucking uncomfortable?
<selenes92> Okay and so what if there is?
<selenes92> And so what if it is?
<selenes92> Who are you to judge what makes me comfortable and uncomfortable
<HarlequinSocks> all i see ar the exact mindset you would fight BEYOND fircy and cry and bitch and moan about being used by yourself
<kiki_lamb> men are not a minority.
<HarlequinSocks> in trans irc they are
<HarlequinSocks> hence
<HarlequinSocks> THIS INSTANCE
<kiki_lamb> women often behave differently around men. that's not a theory, that's a true thing.
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<HarlequinSocks> if you can read th words written
<HarlequinSocks> if you ever want to be part of an inclusionary society, maybe you should be the change you want
<HarlequinSocks> instead of repeating the behavoiur
<kiki_lamb> i can't recall advocating for an inclusionary society.
<OffensiveUser> yeah, believe the cishets when they piss on your face and tell you it's raining
<OffensiveUser> it's sweet
<OffensiveUser> salty
<OffensiveUser> rain
<OffensiveUser> BE CHANGE
* Nikashi (~user@unaffiliated/nikashi) has left ("Leaving")
* SaucyElf lowers HarlequinSocks' T dosage
>nikashi< this shit is getting ridiculous
<OffensiveUser> so kids today we learned that if you want your own space, don't because whatabout the mens, and if you still want one you can not function in society and are a white supremacist or something
* kiki_lamb isn't a social justice warrior and doesn't generally position herself as one. She generally doesn't even describe herself as a feminist. She tends to call herself a trans-supremacist and doesn't so much advocate for an end to bigotry so much as she advocates for bigotry in her favour.
<OffensiveUser> ah yes, the other end of the "i desperately need attention" spectrum
<Fuzzy_mobile> The fuck did I come back too
<tammiinnorcal> kiki_lamb can fight for my justice anytime
<kiki_lamb> I don't really have any particular problem with men, either - again, not a rabid feminist. I love men, that doesn't mean I want to be around them 24/7.
<Fuzzy_mobile> Well we don't want to be around you 24/7
<Fuzzy_mobile> No seriously
<kiki_lamb> you don't have to, you're free to participate in spaces i'm not permitted in.
<Fuzzy_mobile> What did I just step in
<OffensiveUser> a shitstorm
<SaucyElf> Plenty of male spaces to go off to. Primal retreats full of guns, booze and yelling
<OffensiveUser> sounds horrid
* VoiceOfAll munches on some popcorn.  Dis gon' be good.
<Fuzzy_mobile> I love how you assume I like those things because I identify as male SaucyElf
<SaucyElf> OffensiveUser: I've got  a few tech-redneck male friends who like to build and blow stuff up.
* Fuzzy_mobile sits next to VoiceOfAll ans steals some popcorn
<selenes92> You know, the funny part is, if it were a cisgendered woman people wouldn't be acting this fucking way
* SaucyElf hands Fuzzy_mobile and VoiceOfAll some spray butter
<GlitchyGirl> Fuzzy_mobile enjoy the show xD
<kiki_lamb> selenes92: if who were a cisgender woman?
<kiki_lamb> Nikashi?
<selenes92> If ANYONE
<selenes92> Doesn't necessarily need to be Nikashi
<selenes92> But if anyone was in this position and it were to be a cisgendered female, we wouldn't be having this discussion 
<kiki_lamb> if nikashi was a cisgender woman, 'her' presence in something that had been desscribed to me as a 'ladies' room' would not have been worthy of remarking on.
<OffensiveUser> SaucyElf: i'd watch them just for the chance of seeing a dude blow himself up
<kiki_lamb> there's nothing wrong with having both specialized spaces and general spaces.
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* erynn watches
* SaucyElf hands erynn a blanket to hide under
<kiki_lamb> i mean, if there isn't a men's only room somewhere, there should be, i can easily imagine that men might have things they'd prefer to talk about without the ladies around.
* erynn dives under blankie
<erynn> i just got a lil' laptop table in my absence now i can IRC on the side ;p
<erynn> and porns
<erynn> trying to keep my desktop/server strictly work
<OffensiveUser> yay porns
* Fuzzy_mobile hangs out in his shit storm bunker